tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29175313.post6014450479060900864..comments2023-07-03T06:05:09.003-06:00Comments on Vox Civitatis: AbortionFrancis Xavier Lillyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04876091843717023128noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29175313.post-61728811009128785062009-03-19T11:37:00.000-06:002009-03-19T11:37:00.000-06:00Good point, Craig. It's an ontological question, f...Good point, Craig. It's an ontological question, for which there's no immediate answer that will achieve a consensus. Also, these questions are by their very nature ill-suited to the pragmatic, self-serving, and power-driven nature of politics.Francis Xavier Lillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876091843717023128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29175313.post-89005312437942063022009-03-19T11:31:00.000-06:002009-03-19T11:31:00.000-06:00I agree that it boils down to life's begin point. ...I agree that it boils down to life's begin point. Anything else is secondary.<BR/><BR/>Life does not begin at conception. It's obvious to me but the contrary is obvious to others. This is a social issue that will never, ever be solved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29175313.post-58709410500346994682009-03-12T15:45:00.000-06:002009-03-12T15:45:00.000-06:00I think I need to insert a female point of view he...I think I need to insert a female point of view here. Abortion is a terrible thing. No woman ever wants to have an abortion. I have seen friends and family members agonize over the decision, and not one of them considered the words of theologians or philosophers. It is an immensely personal and heart breaking decision that there is no going back from once made.<BR/><BR/>Making abortion legal was an incredible step for women. No longer did she have to fear the dangerous back alley surgeon or the horrors of self induced abortions. How many mothers, daughters and sisters were lost to such acts? These women were absolutely desperate. For them there was no other option. With Roe v. Wade, a woman was able to be under proper medical supervision during the procedure, and didn't have to lie bleeding to death on the bathroom floor.<BR/><BR/>This is so much more than a Democrat versus Republican conversation. This is a public health issue. What really needs to happen is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Thorough sex education, including both abstinence and contraception, is vital to this goal.<BR/><BR/>I am purposely leaving religion out of my argument. I am trying to present the point of view of a reasonable woman who has thought a lot about both sides of the argument. For me, it comes down to protecting the health and welfare of women in a desperate situation. Allow her the dignity to make a legal decision about her reproductive system. She is the one who will have to live with her decision. It is upon her conscience as to whether or not she has taken a life.<BR/><BR/>This is an issue that will be discussed by politician and religious leaders with no real progress. As of right now, in this country, abortion is a legal medical procedure that is a woman's right to receive. <BR/><BR/>-AnnikaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29175313.post-82746490487662170412009-03-12T09:11:00.000-06:002009-03-12T09:11:00.000-06:00I avoided the issue of life deliberately, and I ex...I avoided the issue of life deliberately, and I explained why in my post: while yours and Dad's points are valid and worthy, that cannot form the foundation of an achievable solution to the abortion debate.<BR/><BR/>For every argument you make about life, there will be a counterargument. And pace Augustine, Aquinas, the Popes, and Moral absolutism, philosophical and theological arguments will not prevail. You will keep hitting a wall.<BR/><BR/>I'm not copping out anything; what I am arguing is that, to find common ground on the abortion issue is of vital importance -- it will save lives and make women whole. Finding common ground will require pro-lifers to shift their focus away from the theological claim that life begins at conception and toward a lower standard. Pro-choicers will similarly have to give way.<BR/><BR/>But as long as one side is harping about women's liberation, choice and equality and the other side is griping about the sanctity of life and grab bag morality, NOTHING will get accomplished. <BR/><BR/>To the degree that the partisans insist on perpetuating these meta-issues, they become their own worst enemies. <BR/><BR/>Back to where we began: yes, life is important. But the solution you seek is political: the reduction of abortion. Political solutions are achieved through political processes. In this democracy, it will require a give-and-take. I believe that, for the sake of moving the debate forward, we need to set aside, at least momentarily, the meta-issues of life and equality, important though they may be.<BR/><BR/>Politics is ugly, guys. It is not pure, it is not ideal. I know this because I live and work in a political environment. So take if from me: if you want to see a reduction in abortion, you will have to give up something. What will it be?Francis Xavier Lillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876091843717023128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29175313.post-32788476017347526842009-03-12T08:40:00.000-06:002009-03-12T08:40:00.000-06:00Okay, Frank, you're dad nailed down what was bothe...Okay, Frank, you're dad nailed down what was bothering me all night about this post. You cannot skirt around the issue of life. That's my problem! Leaving the issue to the theologians and philosophers is a cop out. I am unaware of any serious theologian who argues that life does not begin at conception. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, to my mind, we either accept that the theologians and philosophers have spoken or we don't. IOW, either life begins at conception or it doesn't. If we accept that life does not begin at conception, then we are drawing an artificial line at some point (which is what Roe did!). This artifical line leaves life with no intrinsic value (i.e. not something to valued above anything else).<BR/><BR/>This was my point last night. We have devalued values. Our society has embraced moral relativism at all costs. We not longer have a hierarchy of values, but a grab bag. On any given issue, government reaches into the bag, extracts some values and attempts to balance them b/c no one value is better than any other.<BR/><BR/>Hence, my problem! There can be no fruitful discussion of abortion beyond what we already have, so long as we maintain a grab bag approach to rights.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29175313.post-16780625495826004892009-03-12T01:46:00.000-06:002009-03-12T01:46:00.000-06:00I agree with much of what you say, but you skirth ...I agree with much of what you say, but you skirth the issue of when life begins, "leaving it to the theologians". I have always left it there from the Dideche through Augustine, Thomas Aquinas to JP II and B. XVI. In a word, I accept what my church teaches. Roe has legally enabled it. I can't stop it, but I want this overturned if for not other reason that it is terrible Con. Law. It will always be a matter of heart and conscience, and people will always find ways to do it. After all, they find ways to break every law, but that is no reason not to have laws. The right to life is the most basic civil right, and if that is denied, the rest are just words. There is no right of privacy for the unborn. I cannot support any politician, particularly nomally RC who supports this terrible act.<BR/><BR/>Love, DadAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01191021065967953738noreply@blogger.com